<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1517</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/17/99 10:30:05 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, December 17 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1517<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Starfield backgrounds and Traveller Miniatures<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: <BR>
Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
Re: Barrelcrahs<BR>
Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
Re: Marines & Cutlasses<BR>
RE: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
[OT] Firearms Discussions (long)<BR>
RE: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
RE: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
[BITS] North American Stock Info<BR>
re: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:23:16 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
Swordy (Colin Michael) wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Nominations:<BR>
> <BR>
> Earth is on the list, of course.  The rosettes in Gateway Quadrant (canon or<BR>
> not).  The royal palace.  Is there a black hole in known space?   A<BR>
> spectacular quasar?  <BR>
<BR>
A black hole, maybe. Do they still think the Cygnus X-ray source is one? <BR>
<BR>
A quasar? Not bloody likely! (thankfully) Last I saw quasars are energy<BR>
sources on the order of entire galaxies going supernova. At once.<BR>
<BR>
They are also a LOT older than most stuff and are probably confined to<BR>
the early universe, since they're some of the most distant things we've<BR>
ever seen. They probably predate our galaxy, much less the vanishingly<BR>
insignificant eyeblink of time that the Third Imperium represents....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:25:45 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
<BR>
Probably at Project Gutenberg:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.gutenberg.net/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey Leonard, where did you get that downloadable bible? What format is it<BR>
> in?  I might find it a handy reference...<BR>
> <BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:43:43 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
> > spectacular quasar?<BR>
><BR>
> A quasar? Not bloody likely! (thankfully) Last I saw quasars are energy<BR>
> sources on the order of entire galaxies going supernova. At once.<BR>
<BR>
oops.  I was thinking of one of those blinky things... um, neutron stars...<BR>
Pulsar!  That's it.  Sorry :-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:49:12 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: Starfield backgrounds and Traveller Miniatures<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
I've been pleased by the responses I have received to my SF miniatures page<BR>
at .<BR>
<BR>
Anybody that wishes to modify my images may do so as long as they don't<BR>
claim credit for the original picture. Also, please send me a copy. I'm<BR>
curious what people can do with them.<BR>
<BR>
SF miniatures page 2 is on the way. I've shot half a roll of film. and I'm<BR>
working at painting the TNE Clipper and the Free Trader. The others are from<BR>
Citadel, Superior, and other model makers (including me)<BR>
<BR>
Finally, I forward this Bryce tutorial link to the list. I've never used<BR>
Bryce in this fashion but I seem to recall that others on the TML do.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Nebulae"- A Bryce 4 Tutorial<BR>
Where other artists have made some stunning landscapes and seascapes with<BR>
Bryce, Sandy Birkholz shows us how to recreate scenes of deep space with<BR>
Bryce 4.0<BR>
http://letters.metacreations.com/scripts/flo.exe?x=dohmhAgowgoouE <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bye,<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers<BR>
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913<BR>
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:54:02 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
The simple fact is that, while it's nice to compare the statistics from one<BR>
country vs. another, even those that are as similar as Canada and the U.S.,<BR>
you cannot draw solid conclusions from these comparisons.  You can only draw<BR>
said conclusions from WITHIN a given country, as there are too many other<BR>
variables to consider.  In the United States, those States and<BR>
Municipalities where concealed carry is on a shall-issue basis have lower<BR>
average crime rates, while neighboring states and municipalities with more<BR>
draconian restrictions have higher crime rates.  More guns = less crime.<BR>
Proven fact.<BR>
<BR>
Now if only Clinton could get this through his sex-drenched brain...<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steven<BR>
Hudson<BR>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:43 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
...<BR>
>By your logic, then, Canada, which has gun-control laws that are<BR>
>stricter than any found in the USA, should have a much higher violent<BR>
>crime rate. We do, in fact, have one that is much *lower*. One<BR>
<BR>
  I'm not sure about that - the one statistic that is striking is that<BR>
our murder rate is about a tenth of theirs, or an annual body count in<BR>
the US of about 90-100x ours (for a population about 8-9x larger - go<BR>
figure?). FWIW, break-ins and muggings are pretty much a barrel of laughs<BR>
compared to being shot and/or killed (I'm guessing about that last, but<BR>
I hope that I'll be forgiven the liberty), so I'll take things as they<BR>
are. And I intend never to spend more than a weekend at a time in the US<BR>
(well, except maybe another cruise to Alaska - way cool stuff).<BR>
<BR>
>factor: the relative lack of availability of guns. Sure, someone who<BR>
>really really wants one can probably get one. But a lot of people who<BR>
>in the US would be able to get one would just give up here, since they<BR>
>aren't as easily available. The cost (in time, effort, and possibly cash)<BR>
>is higher than many would want to pay.<BR>
<BR>
  As much fun as the gun nuts can be, there doesn't seem to be a direct<BR>
correlation between gun possession and murders - witness comparing Calgary<BR>
& Vancouver; Alberta has the highest possession rate of the provinces<BR>
(IIRC), while Vancouver is mostly empty of firearms (regardless of the<BR>
efforts of those heroic entrepreneurs in organized crime). And yet the<BR>
murder rates are comparable at best (Vancouver is the third-largest city<BR>
in the country, but Calgary is close enough for comparison) - at worst<BR>
Vancouver is rather worse (pick your years carefully, and have fun adding<BR>
suspected murders allocated from missing persons tallies).<BR>
<BR>
  I wonder how Vancouver & Seattle stack up historically, though - they<BR>
should be tolerably similar.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:39:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
At 11:02 PM 12/16/1999 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>XTML, more properly X-boat, was killed despite protests of the most active<BR>
>posters, because MWM promised us a "Revised CT", and said the only place<BR>
>for info was this list, and NOT the XBML; what we got was not anything like<BR>
>CT, MT, nor TNE.<BR>
<BR>
I was subscibed to both the TML and x-boat, and it was close to 80% cross<BR>
posts.  And God forbid you should even mention TNE in passing.  I'm happy<BR>
with one list.<BR>
<BR>
There's nothing stopping anyone from going out to Onelist and starting<BR>
their own CT/MT list though.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:41:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
<BR>
At 04:48 PM 12/16/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> "My God, it's full of penguins..."<BR>
><BR>
>Well, it had to happen.  Doug finally can put a Nasal Spray silhouette<BR>
>with my name on it on his keyboard.  Congratulations.  (Especially since<BR>
>it's not my keyboard, but John Harvard's.  Way to go!).<BR>
<BR>
YESSS!!  The Everest of TML sprays!<BR>
<BR>
>Nevertheless, retribution will be slow and certain.  Especially if I join<BR>
>the trickle of TML'ers to SF once I get out of this hive of prim and<BR>
>decency.<BR>
<BR>
Eeep.  Mark?  Care to visit?  And bring most of the toy room?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:45:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
<BR>
At 07:57 PM 12/16/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmmm...lemme guess...."2001: A Linux Odyssey"!!<BR>
<BR>
sadly, the Discovery Channel had an entire hour on the Emperor Penguin last<BR>
night.  At one point Kirsten wandered by and watched a sequence of penguins<BR>
leaping out of the ocean.  "I don't know what he's throwing those penguins<BR>
at." as she walked away.  Ever pass pizza through your nose?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:47:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Barrelcrahs<BR>
<BR>
At 12:28 PM 12/17/1999 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>	Probably the best-known camo safety is the one used in 40 mm <BR>
>	grenade launcher warheads. The old 40 mm HE warhead had <BR>
>	spherical pre-fragmented grenade and large spin-armed detonator. <BR>
>	When launched, the warhead had to rotate a few times (the <BR>
>	launcher has rifled barrel) before the detonator was armed.<BR>
<BR>
And I have seen a sergeant catch one of the dummy rounds in flight.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:53:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
<BR>
At 12:56 AM 12/17/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Curious question then...if the Solomani are the most physically diverse,<BR>
>then what parts of Earth did the Vilani and Zhodani come from?<BR>
<BR>
Any part.  Since the the samples taken by the Ancients could have been h.<BR>
habilus, each branch of humanity continued evolving on its own on whatever<BR>
world it was dropped on.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:56:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines & Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
At 07:09 AM 12/17/1999 +1100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Hopefully they don't use the dreaded Poke-'n-Hope electronic scoring<BR>
>method, a good ref is a thousand times better than just charging in and<BR>
>hoping your button hit's in the 1/25th of a second before your opponents.<BR>
<BR>
I imagine the system will be slightly more advanced.<BR>
<BR>
>    Okay! Okay! The marines used the Cutlass, that's a given. My point was<BR>
>that the Navy used it for about five time longer but they don't seem<BR>
>interested in it.<BR>
<BR>
To dirty and common for the Mighty (shiny) Imperial Fleet!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
We all enter the world in the same way: naked, screaming, soaked in blood.<BR>
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop<BR>
there.  <BR>
- -- Dana Gould <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:01:27 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > At 03:58 PM 12/16/1999 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
> > > BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
> > > http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > "Something wonderful is going to happen."<BR>
> > <BR>
> > "My God, it's full of penguins..."<BR>
><BR>
> From the movie "2001: At Close Quarters."<BR>
<BR>
Hmm ... shouldn't that be the book rather than movie.  The  movie<BR>
quote would be at the start of "2010: Too Close".<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:18:17 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
<BR>
At 08:45 AM 12/17/99, you wrote:<BR>
>At 07:57 PM 12/16/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Hmmmm...lemme guess...."2001: A Linux Odyssey"!!<BR>
><BR>
>sadly, the Discovery Channel had an entire hour on the Emperor Penguin last<BR>
>night.  At one point Kirsten wandered by and watched a sequence of penguins<BR>
>leaping out of the ocean.  "I don't know what he's throwing those penguins<BR>
>at." as she walked away.  Ever pass pizza through your nose?<BR>
>-- <BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
        That is *brutal*....  <snicker><BR>
        Might I recommend some Dristan?<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:27:49 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
>So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space?<BR>
<BR>
It's a bloody wonder the PCs in my campaign are still breathing, does that <BR>
count?<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
end<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:40:49 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >ObTrav:  I once had a Traveller player who planned to have his character<BR>
> >buy a "book" of the "Seven Wonders of the Known Universe" and be an<BR>
> >interstellar tourist.<BR>
> <BR>
> So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space? Any ideas? Apart from the<BR>
> unfinished ringworld in the Vargr Extents I can't think of any canonical<BR>
> feature that merits inclusion on a list of the seven most spectacular<BR>
> sights of the known universe.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would list the Anti-Matter Planetoid Belt at Shionthy as a<BR>
Wonder of Charted Space.  Bit of a hassle _visiting_ it, though....<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:57:53 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space?<BR>
><BR>
> It's a bloody wonder the PCs in my campaign are still breathing, does that<BR>
> count?<BR>
><BR>
Add my keyboard to the grow list of the dead<BR>
<BR>
Wayne<BR>
wewart@home.com<BR>
icq22113294<BR>
http://www.members.home.net/wewart/wewart/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.<BR>
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.<BR>
- - Terry Pratchett<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:10:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Firearms Discussions (long)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>You also have to remember that Jefferson and others <BR>
>>are on record as having stated (essentially) that if <BR>
>>the government got out of hand, the people were <BR>
>>*supposed* to overthrow it by force of arms!<BR>
><BR>
>That is, after all, exactly what happened in the<BR>
>American Revolution.  The people overthrew the British<BR>
>colonial government.  <BR>
<BR>
   It should also be pointed out that the initial battle of the American<BR>
Revolutionary War (Lexington) occurred because the British Army decided to<BR>
seize private citizens' weapons that were being held in community arsenals<BR>
outside of Boston.<BR>
<BR>
   Harold's Thoughts On Gun Control (send replies to hdhale@mindspring.com)<BR>
<BR>
   1) While there are similarities between the U.S., Canada, Finland, New<BR>
Zealand, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and France, the U.S. is<BR>
culturally different enough from Canada, Finland, New Zealand, Switzerland,<BR>
the United Kingdom, and France that gun control debates that resort to<BR>
comparing this and that country's statistics (especially those that imply<BR>
that the U.S. should give up private ownership of guns like a child gives<BR>
up its "blankee" or favorite stuffed animal) are nothing more than a<BR>
philosophical exercise with little practical value.  If you are lucky<BR>
enough to live in the country with a relatively homogenous population that<BR>
has a tradition of resolving serious differences over several alcoholic<BR>
beverages and a couple of fists or one really serious opium binge, good for<BR>
you.  The rest of us will find our own path.<BR>
<BR>
   2) It can be accurately pointed out that governments and peoples have<BR>
from time to time in the course of history deemed it appropriate to<BR>
concentrate the ability to use force in the form of projectile weapons in<BR>
the hands of the state.  When this has happened, the resulting changes in<BR>
society have been mixed at best.  Hitler made sure that guns were rounded<BR>
up when he took power in the 1930s.  On the other hand the UK rounded up<BR>
most all firearms in the 1920s when fear spread of a Communist insurgency.<BR>
The former resulted in one of the most repressive regimes in history.  The<BR>
latter has been a stable democracy ever since (even if you may disagree<BR>
with the policies of the current Labour Government).<BR>
<BR>
   3) A firearm is a weapon capable of killing people with greater<BR>
efficiency than with knives, swords, arrows, cars, clubs, ropes, bare<BR>
hands, etc.  That's *all* a firearm really is--a more efficient machine.<BR>
Not as efficient as poison gas, nuclear power, or a 747 perhaps, but on the<BR>
scale of things, effective for what it is design to do.  It is incapable of<BR>
killing in and of itself unless it is seriously mechanically defective, and<BR>
then it does so, it does it completely without malice or forethought, just<BR>
like a car with bad brakes on a long hill.  In fact there is nothing<BR>
inherently evil in any human-built machine, regardless of its purpose or<BR>
how "cold" or "military" it looks.  A firearm is a piece of reasonably well<BR>
manufactured metal, plastic, and/or wood or ivory and nothing more than<BR>
that until *someone* puts it to use.  Then, it can make save a life or even<BR>
countless lives by killing or wounding someone(s) intent on doing harm.  It<BR>
can also be used to kill babies, elderly women, pregnant mothers, and<BR>
Presidents.  *Why* it is used is what is important, not whether or not it<BR>
can hold 10 rounds or 20, whether or not it has a flash supresser, or if it<BR>
has a detachable magazine.<BR>
<BR>
   4) Banning firearms will not prevent murder or even mass murder.  The<BR>
Oklahoma City bombing was carried out and killed hundreds of people without<BR>
a single shot being fired.  The IRA killed and wounded far more people with<BR>
bombs in their campaign to drive the British out of Northern Ireland than<BR>
they ever did with guns.  The gas attacks on the Tokyo subway system a few<BR>
years ago were also conducted without firearms.  Tribesmen in Africa have<BR>
conducted killing sprees with machetes that killed and wounded dozens even<BR>
hundreds at a time.  The History texts are filled with people who had no<BR>
trouble butchering, mutilating, raping, and oppressing their fellow men and<BR>
women without so much as a whiff of gunpowder in the air.  Is it possible<BR>
that some of those people could have killed many more if they had a<BR>
firearm?  Perhaps--then again, maybe some of those who chose to use<BR>
firearms to do their deeds would have instead resorted to even more<BR>
efficient means of killing such as explosives (mixed in a bath tub out of<BR>
common chemicals) or worse if a firearm hadn't been there.<BR>
<BR>
   5) The Constitution of the U.S. is quite clear--private citizens are<BR>
allowed to own firearms and the central government cannot prevent them from<BR>
doing so as long as they abide by the laws of the land.  The U.S.<BR>
Constitution also states, quite unambiguously, that the Congress should<BR>
provide funding to provide private citizens in the proper military<BR>
training, and shall appoint officers as necessary so that the private<BR>
citizens have a chain of command to report to while they are training or<BR>
when and if they ever get called on to protect the country.  So far as I<BR>
know, the Congress hasn't appointed a single officer for such a purpose<BR>
since the 1800s, and they stopped providing funding for firearms training<BR>
(let alone training in proper military drill) years ago.  Technically<BR>
speaking, this means that Congress has not lived up to its Constitutional<BR>
obligations, and corrective actions should be taken immediately by the<BR>
President of the U.S. and/or the people.  But wait, not even President<BR>
Ronald Reagan, known 2nd Amendment advocate, believed that Congress should<BR>
provide funding for training private citizens for military duty outside the<BR>
confines of the U.S. military, and I never heard one peep from him during<BR>
the 1980s about appointing officers for that chain of command the<BR>
aforementioned private citizens are suppose to have.  If the primary reason<BR>
stated for private gun ownership is suppose to be about having a "well<BR>
regulated militia" (as the U.S. Constitution states), and the militia is<BR>
suppose to consist of eligible members of the aforementioned private<BR>
citizenry (excluding the National Guard, which, sorry folks, is a part of<BR>
the U.S. Army/Air Force) then the militia has been allowed to fall into<BR>
disrepair and needs to be immediately funded, or the Second Amendment<BR>
repealed.<BR>
<BR>
   6) On the other hand, the Supreme Court of the U.S. has seen fit to give<BR>
the citizens of the U.S. the right to an abortion (Roe vs. Wade) through<BR>
intepreting the U.S. Constitution to say that a woman's choice to terminate<BR>
a pregnancy is protected, even though it is not explicitly stated as such;<BR>
that burning an American flag in protect is a form of free speech, though<BR>
it is not explicitedly stated; that religious displays can be banned in<BR>
certain public areas even though the First Amendment does not explicitly<BR>
state this; that separate but equal facilities for minorities are<BR>
unconstitutional, even though it is not explicitedly stated.  The point is,<BR>
many things have been judged by the Supreme Court as constitutional or<BR>
unconstitutional based on far less supporting evidence in the U.S.<BR>
Constitution than exists currently for private gun ownership.  One would<BR>
think that those who support abortion rights, flag burning, exclusion of<BR>
religious symbols, and integration would also support private gun<BR>
ownership, but as I have noted on more than one occasion, many Americans<BR>
have a rather sad tendency to be total and complete flaming hypocrites when<BR>
it comes to their personal behavior and to their supposed beliefs on what<BR>
constitutes "inalienable rights".<BR>
<BR>
   One more point: given the large volume of gun laws currently on the<BR>
books regarding private firearms ownership in the U.S., it could be argued<BR>
that the "militia" (eligible private citizens) are already "well<BR>
regulated", and that the provisions for funding the appointment of officers<BR>
and training the militia were intended for the purposes of preparing for<BR>
repelling a foreign invasion only--the threat of which the U.S. has been<BR>
free of since 1815.  Also, if the U.S. Supreme Court has been reluctant in<BR>
the past to hear 2nd Amendment cases, it has been because they wished to<BR>
give local authorities the maximum flexibility possible in how they wished<BR>
to deal with gun laws, not because they were necessarily pro or anti-gun.<BR>
Any significant ruling by the Supreme Court would have altered that ability.<BR>
<BR>
   7) People who live in mansions and "gated communities" surrounded by<BR>
high walls, steel gates, costly high tech security systems, 24 hours<BR>
guards, and access to police who will respond in under 7 minutes to a phone<BR>
call (Rosie O'Donnell, Jane Fonda, Sharon Stone, insert the name of your<BR>
favorite rich elitist celebrity here) have no business lecturing *anyone*,<BR>
particularly people living in cities where illegal drugs and illegal<BR>
weapons follow in and out of neighborhoods like sewage through a sewage<BR>
line, about whatever less expensive security measures they may take,<BR>
including the ownership of a legally obtained firearm.  Further, they have<BR>
no business lecturing people on why further weapons bans should be put in<BR>
place, since whatever additional bans in the U.S. they propose will<BR>
disproportionately disarm honest citizens, while leaving criminals with the<BR>
same steady flow of illegal firearms they had before.<BR>
<BR>
   I think I've covered all the bases now regarding people's comments on<BR>
gun control during the latest "outbreak".  I will post nothing further here<BR>
on this topic unless in the above lecture I have made some sort of factual<BR>
error that needs correcting.  Those who wish to discuss this further, the<BR>
address is listed above.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Harold<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:10:12 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> Without meaning to throw sparks on the dry tinder of<BR>
> the canon issue, how many of you follow the official<BR>
> rules and canon?  I use most of the CT rules that I<BR>
> know of, and don't sweat the ones I don't know.  MTU<BR>
> has numerous tweeks and house rules, and many facets<BR>
> of the Imperium might make other cringe.  What is the<BR>
> distribution of philosophies out there?<BR>
<BR>
Rules:  MT-lite  ...  usually  no  task  time  rules  or   combat<BR>
inturrupts, only "advanced" character generation, plus "Spice  Of<BR>
Life" add-on rules from Challenge magazine and cultural mods from<BR>
World Builder's Handbook.<BR>
<BR>
Canon: CT universe in Spinward Marches around 5FW ... as canon as<BR>
possible for the most part but the Ancients are Cthulhu-esq.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:23:01 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: RE: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> > Without meaning to throw sparks on the dry tinder of<BR>
> > the canon issue, how many of you follow the official<BR>
> > rules and canon?  I use most of the CT rules that I<BR>
> > know of, and don't sweat the ones I don't know.  MTU<BR>
> > has numerous tweeks and house rules, and many facets<BR>
> > of the Imperium might make other cringe.  What is the<BR>
> > distribution of philosophies out there?<BR>
<BR>
Rules: MT-variant & light... plus anything I like from any game <BR>
system. <BR>
<BR>
Canon: It might be canon... I set it beyond charted space, but the <BR>
universe the players left behind is supposed to be the MT one... only <BR>
they still don't know how much time they were hibernated, so it might <BR>
be the TNE one... or a different one. Maybe one day they'll find out. <BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:04:46 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] North American Stock Info<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Just to let you know: Our couriers inform us that the shipment of <BR>
'The Khiidkar Incident' and 'SpaceDogs' was delivered to Steve <BR>
Jackson Games on Monday 13th December 1999. Included in the shipment <BR>
were a limited number of copies of the 2nd Edition of Timothy <BR>
Collinson's "The Traveller Bibliography".<BR>
<BR>
So keep an eye on SJG's elves at Warehouse 23 and hopefully you'll be <BR>
able to have two new adventures and a copy of the best guide to <BR>
Traveller ever produced for the festive season!<BR>
<BR>
BITS would like to wish you a Happy Christmas and a Great 2000!<BR>
<BR>
And there's more news to come....<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS webmaster)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:16:57 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
<BR>
At 10:59 -0500 17/12/99, Diespamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>Sorry to barge in on the paintball debate...but could Paul S. of Cargonaut<BR>
>please contact Fred Kiesche (Diespamer@aol.com)?<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks...and now back to the debate...<BR>
<BR>
he's away in Europe  until early January.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
                        MiB - Marines in Battledress<BR>
    "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:26:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions (long)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Harold D. Hale wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip> <BR>
<BR>
Amazing!  What a wonderful, coherent, sane and articulate post on a topic<BR>
that makes a lot of people simply lose their minds.  May I forward it to<BR>
my favorite sparring partner on this issue?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
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